Return-Path: <sentto-279987-4553-1015254545-fc=all.net@returns.groups.yahoo.com> Delivered-To: fc@all.net Received: from 204.181.12.215 [204.181.12.215] by localhost with POP3 (fetchmail-5.7.4) for fc@localhost (single-drop); Mon, 04 Mar 2002 07:12:08 -0800 (PST) Received: (qmail 31002 invoked by uid 510); 4 Mar 2002 15:09:28 -0000 Received: from n24.groups.yahoo.com (216.115.96.74) by all.net with SMTP; 4 Mar 2002 15:09:28 -0000 X-eGroups-Return: sentto-279987-4553-1015254545-fc=all.net@returns.groups.yahoo.com Received: from [216.115.97.166] by n24.groups.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 04 Mar 2002 15:09:05 -0000 X-Sender: fc@red.all.net X-Apparently-To: iwar@onelist.com Received: (EGP: unknown); 4 Mar 2002 15:09:04 -0000 Received: (qmail 3078 invoked from network); 4 Mar 2002 15:09:04 -0000 Received: from unknown (216.115.97.172) by m12.grp.snv.yahoo.com with QMQP; 4 Mar 2002 15:09:04 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO red.all.net) (12.232.72.152) by mta2.grp.snv.yahoo.com with SMTP; 4 Mar 2002 15:09:04 -0000 Received: (from fc@localhost) by red.all.net (8.11.2/8.11.2) id g24F9fe05089 for iwar@onelist.com; Mon, 4 Mar 2002 07:09:41 -0800 Message-Id: <200203041509.g24F9fe05089@red.all.net> To: iwar@onelist.com (Information Warfare Mailing List) Organization: I'm not allowed to say X-Mailer: don't even ask X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.5 PL3] From: Fred Cohen <fc@all.net> X-Yahoo-Profile: fcallnet Mailing-List: list iwar@yahoogroups.com; contact iwar-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list iwar@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:iwar-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com> Date: Mon, 4 Mar 2002 07:09:41 -0800 (PST) Subject: [iwar] [fc:Fatalities.Removed.From.Statistics.-.Army,.Air.Force.count.losses.differently] Reply-To: iwar@yahoogroups.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dayton Daily News March 3, 2002 Fatalities Removed From Statistics - Army, Air Force count losses differently By Russell Carollo, Dayton Daily News Darke County man and another Air Force pararescue jumper, among 10 military personnel killed in an Army helicopter crash in the Philippines last month, are no longer included in the Army's aviation fatality statistics. Air Force Master Sgt. William "Bub" McDaniel II of Darke County was killed in the crash along with Sgt. Juan M. Ridout. Both were from the Air Force's 320th Special Tactics Squadron at Kadena Air Base, Japan. Sometime last week, the Army changed the aviation fatality numbers on its Web site from 14 to 12. With that change came a drop in the increase in fatalities for this fiscal year, from 133 percent to 100 percent. There were six Army aviation fatalities reported by this time last year and just two the year before. "I can confirm that the two Air Force personnel were removed," Army spokeswoman Martha Rudd said Thursday. They are among at least 20 military personnel killed on Army aircraft during the past year who were not counted by any service as aviation fatalities, according to the Air Force. All were members of the Air Force or Air National Guard. The Air Force, which is also responsible for keeping statistics on Air National Guard crashes, didn't count them either. According to the Air Force, the two services disagree over interpretation of a Department of Defense regulation on how to count aviation fatalities when the dead are from other services. "Now if it had been an Air Force helicopter and it crashed and everybody died, they would be (counted by the Air Force) as flight fatals," said Maj. David Hoff, an Air Force spokesman at the Pentagon. The Air Force says it counts everyone killed on its aircraft. Among the nine fatalities counted by the Air Force last year were two civilians and an Italian pilot. The Army did not respond to numerous phone calls and e-mails for additional comment, but the Air Force says it has been at odds with the Army over how to count fatalities since at least March 3, 2001, when 21 guardsmen were killed in Georgia in the crash of an Army C-23 transport plane. "Let's just say there was another Army accident in which there was creative accounting," Hoff said. On March 3, 2001, an Army National Guard C-23 Sherpa transport crashed near Unadilla, Ga., killing 21- three members of the Army National Guard and 18 members of the Virginia Air National Guard. On Friday, the Army's official aviation safety Web site showed 11 aviation fatalities during fiscal year 2001, nearly triple the number from the previous year even without counting all aboard the C-23. If the 18 Air Guard members had been counted, the Army's totals for the year would have listed 29 fatalities - an increase of 25 from the previous year. The Air Force Web site showed nine aviation fatalities for the same period. The Air Force, Hoff said, assumed the Army had counted the 18 dead Virginia Air Guard members. "We assumed that," Hoff said. "That's correct, only because that's how we would count them. We were applying our interpretation to how we thought the Army would do it." The Department of Defense instruction, which Hoff says the two services are interpreting differently, is two sentences long: "For joint services accidents, the involved DOD components will determine/allocate costs and losses according to asset ownership and personnel assignment. Each DOD component will report their own losses attributable to a joint service accident." Hoff said the Air Force didn't believe it should have to record the fatalities in its numbers. "Our position was, it's not an Air Force flight mishap," he said. "How can we be held accountable for a flight mishap fatal that was not a flight mishap attributable to us?" Hoff wasn't sure if there was any effort underway to clear up the misunderstanding. "It's a real hot topic here," he said. ------------------ http://all.net/ Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
This archive was generated by hypermail 2.1.2 : 2002-12-31 02:15:04 PST