Return-Path: <sentto-279987-1482-996212796-fc=all.net@returns.onelist.com>
Delivered-To: fc@all.net
Received: from 204.181.12.215 by localhost with POP3 (fetchmail-5.1.0) for fc@localhost (single-drop); Thu, 26 Jul 2001 22:50:08 -0700 (PDT)
Received: (qmail 9972 invoked by uid 510); 27 Jul 2001 04:49:54 -0000
Received: from n21.groups.yahoo.com (216.115.96.71) by 204.181.12.215 with SMTP; 27 Jul 2001 04:49:54 -0000
X-eGroups-Return: sentto-279987-1482-996212796-fc=all.net@returns.onelist.com
Received: from [10.1.4.53] by ci.egroups.com with NNFMP; 27 Jul 2001 05:46:37 -0000
X-Sender: fastflyer28@yahoo.com
X-Apparently-To: iwar@yahoogroups.com
Received: (EGP: mail-7_2_0); 27 Jul 2001 05:46:35 -0000
Received: (qmail 76052 invoked from network); 27 Jul 2001 05:46:34 -0000
Received: from unknown (10.1.10.27) by l7.egroups.com with QMQP; 27 Jul 2001 05:46:34 -0000
Received: from unknown (HELO web14503.mail.yahoo.com) (216.136.224.66) by mta2 with SMTP; 27 Jul 2001 05:46:32 -0000
Message-ID: <20010727054632.30581.qmail@web14503.mail.yahoo.com>
Received: from [12.78.116.81] by web14503.mail.yahoo.com; Thu, 26 Jul 2001 22:46:32 PDT
To: iwar@yahoogroups.com
In-Reply-To: <72222DC86846D411ABD300A0C9EB08A156FCF0@csoc-mail-box.csoconline.com>
From: "e.r." <fastflyer28@yahoo.com>
Mailing-List: list iwar@yahoogroups.com; contact iwar-owner@yahoogroups.com
Delivered-To: mailing list iwar@yahoogroups.com
Precedence: bulk
List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:iwar-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com>
Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2001 22:46:32 -0700 (PDT)
Reply-To: iwar@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [iwar] Chinese IW-one more thought
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
You are quite right about China. The "Middle Kingdom" ,or the center
of all things as the see themselves, most Americans simply do not
understand there way of thinking. At the level of President, from
Nixon through Clinton, the same errors have been repeated over and over
again. It is an interesting situation, albeit damaging to the US.
During the Cold War, we tried to play the "China Card" off of Russia.
While it has positive effects, for example, during the Carter Admin. we
went too far. As soon as Russia invaded Afganistan, we sold them Tow
anit-tank missiles and many other weapons. Even more damaging was our
sale of computers to them. We trained most of their best engineers who
are now using hardware they have improved in cyber fights against us,
other nations and sub-national actors. There is a high national
security cost associated with training China's IWAR leaders yet we fail
to recognize it.
Our country needs to learn that the short term notion of why using the
policy that "the enemy of my enemy is my friend" never lasts and
eventually comes back in our face. While Russia is still a problem, it
economic fraility limits what they can do in a strategic sense in the
IWAR world.
\
--- "Leo, \Ross" <Ross.Leo@csoconline.com> wrote:
> America\ has never understood nor correctly dealt with the Oriental
> mental\ity, which incidentally includes
> the R\ussians. Our failure to do so has resulted in repeated and
> expensive
> lessons. When will we learn?
> If the Presidents and some Cabinet members we have had in recent
> years are
> any indication, maybe never.
> And the lessons will only get more expensive as time and events
> progress...
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: e.r. [ mailto:fastflyer28@yahoo.com
> <mailto:fastflyer28@yahoo.com> ]
> Sent: Thursday, July 26, 2001 17:28
> To: iwar@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: RE: [iwar] Chinese IW-one more thought
>
>
> 6 American Presidents have worked with the Chinese and they have all
> been "played" with ease. If you approch any problem claiming to be
> the largest 3rd world country on the planet, you keep yourself below
> the radar screen. You claim to be non-threatening and you kick butt
> on
> trade, defennse and many other issues. If you act defenseless,but
> are
> slick predators, you can become the Bad Boy Nation in Eurasia.
> Exporting weapons does help. The US just looks at them as
> non-threatening, but what fools we are. They may only have a military
> that can act regionally, but in the diplomatic world, threats about
> Taiwan runs like good champaign-smoothly. When will we learn?
>
> \\
> \
> --- "Leo, Ross" <Ross.Leo@csoconline.com> wrote:\
> > It would appear that, once again, we have invited trouble in by the
> > front
> > door.
> > The only saving grace is that we taught them everything they know,
> > even if
> > they
> > are using in unintended or undesirable ways against us. Combating
> > this
> > will
> > major paradigm shift to mount a defense ("knowing what your enemy
> > knows and
> > knowing his tactics"). What are the chances?
> >
> > AOL is good software? Unbelievable! This is most disheartening.
> >
> > Ross Leo
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: e.r. [ mailto:fastflyer28@yahoo.com
> <mailto:fastflyer28@yahoo.com> ]
> > Sent: Wednesday, July 25, 2001 08:54
> > To: iwar@yahoogroups.com
> > Subject: RE: [iwar] Chinese IW
> >
> >
> > Since we normalized relations with the PRC at any given time, we
> have
> > had over 30,000 "students in this country. Guess what the majority
> > of
> > them majored in? Hard sciences, computer sci-nuke physics and aero
> > engineering. America has trained some of China's best scientists
> and
> > engineers
> >
> > And for the question asked on the 21 Club, Richard Clarke may not
> > have
> > been superman were cyber-terrorism is involved, but on 21 Club
> Boards
> > members, one of the is who I know thinks AOL is the finest
> "software"
> > in the world. When I aksed him about this problem, he think if we
> > hire
> > out AOL to deal with cyber-terrorism that should do the trick and
> he
> > works for the SecDEF-that is utterly sad.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > --- "Leo, Ross" <Ross.Leo@csoconline.com> wrote:
> > > Frankly, I have never wondered where the Chinese (or anyone else
> we
> > > consider
> > > a "bad guy") get their technology, virus or otherwise. In 1998,
> > the
> > > firm I
> > > worked for (global trader of various commodities) kept getting a
> > > virus
> > > through on-line documents from a Chinese trading partner. After
> > > several
> > > occurrences, I phoned the partner to tell them to check out their
> > > systems
> > > and clean them. They apologized profusely for the inconvenience
> -
> > > they
> > > discovered that the licenses to their Norton AV and their McAfee
> > had
> > > expired, and the *.DAT updates were no longer being added! A
> > little
> > > further
> > > questioning (under the guise of trying to help them figure out
> the
> > > problem)
> > > revealed that the products had been acquired on a trip to
> Singapore
> > > since
> > > they could not be purchased (then) in the PRC. The products were
> > > however in
> > > their most current international form at the time they were
> > acquired
> > > (by
> > > whatever means).
> > >
> > > Folks may like to think that these potentially hostile parties
> have
> > > stolen
> > > all the technology they currently possess. This may be true to
> > some
> > > extent,
> > > but what is more often the case is they simply buy it like
> everyone
> > > else.
> > > They may pirate it, copy it, reverse engineer it, etc, after they
> > > obtain a
> > > few legit copies, but that is no more than goes on in the US
> daily.
> >
> > > This is
> > > just another business case of "if you can't beat 'em, join 'em."
> > > Only this
> > > time its "if you can't keep 'em from stealing it, offer to sell
> it
> > > to them
> > > before they steal it anyway".
> > >
> > > IMHO: The fact that the companies that do this facilitate
> > > potentially
> > > hostile parties ultimately learning how to compromise the systems
> > we
> > > are
> > > trying to protect is of no particular or apparent consequence to
> > > them, not
> > > realizing that they themselves become as big a target as our labs
> > and
> > > DoD
> > > might be. When I bring this to their attention, the salesmen
> > > magnanimously
> > > suggest I look at it as "job security" for security types (We are
> a
> > > "type"
> > > now"?).
> > >
> > > The difference today versus during the Cold War is now it is
> about
> > > dollars,
> > > not dogma (no great surprise).
> > >
> > > Ross Leo
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: Fred Cohen [ mailto:fc@all.net <mailto:fc@all.net> <
> mailto:fc@all.net <mailto:fc@all.net> > ]
> > > Sent: Tuesday, July 24, 2001 15:47
> > > To: iwar@yahoogroups.com
> > > Subject: Re: [iwar] Chinese IW
> > >
> > >
> > > Per the message sent by JunkMail Rosenberger:
> > >
> > > > Do you wonder where China gets all its virus technology?
> Wonder
> > no
> > > more!
> > > > They obtain it directly from U.S. antivirus firms. Ironically,
> > > those same
> > > > U.S. antivirus firms *refuse* to supply Washington with virus
> > > technology
> > > --
> > > > because they don't trust the feds. Go figure. Read
> > > > http://Vmyths.com/resource.cfm?id=49
> <http://Vmyths.com/resource.cfm?id=49>
> > > < http://Vmyths.com/resource.cfm?id=49
> <http://Vmyths.com/resource.cfm?id=49&page=1> &page=1> &page=1 for
> details.
> > >
> > > > Rob
> > >
> > > Ah yes - the famous provision of details to the Chinese while
> > keeping
> > > the US in the dark. Money is the difference - of course.
> Business
> > > is
> > > more powerful than government. Ever see "Rollerball"?
> > >
> > > FC
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> > __________________________________________________
> > Do You Yahoo!?
> > Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail
> > http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ <http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/>
> >
> >
> > ------------------
> > http://all.net/ <http://all.net/>
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/>
> >
> >
>
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Make international calls for as low as $.04/minute with Yahoo!
> Messenger
> http://phonecard.yahoo.com/ <http://phonecard.yahoo.com/>
>
>
> ------------------
> http://all.net/ <http://all.net/>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/>
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Make international calls for as low as $.04/minute with Yahoo! Messenger
http://phonecard.yahoo.com/
------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~-->
Small business owners...
Tell us what you think!
http://us.click.yahoo.com/vO1FAB/txzCAA/ySSFAA/kgFolB/TM
---------------------------------------------------------------------~->
------------------
http://all.net/
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
This archive was generated by hypermail 2.1.2 : 2001-09-29 21:08:38 PDT