Return-Path: <sentto-279987-1511-996592403-fc=all.net@returns.onelist.com> Delivered-To: fc@all.net Received: from 204.181.12.215 by localhost with POP3 (fetchmail-5.1.0) for fc@localhost (single-drop); Tue, 31 Jul 2001 08:14:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 24445 invoked by uid 510); 31 Jul 2001 14:15:48 -0000 Received: from n10.groups.yahoo.com (216.115.96.60) by 204.181.12.215 with SMTP; 31 Jul 2001 14:15:48 -0000 X-eGroups-Return: sentto-279987-1511-996592403-fc=all.net@returns.onelist.com Received: from [10.1.4.53] by ej.egroups.com with NNFMP; 31 Jul 2001 15:13:23 -0000 X-Sender: Ross.Leo@csoconline.com X-Apparently-To: iwar@yahoogroups.com Received: (EGP: mail-7_2_0); 31 Jul 2001 15:13:22 -0000 Received: (qmail 62464 invoked from network); 31 Jul 2001 15:13:22 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.142) by l7.egroups.com with QMQP; 31 Jul 2001 15:13:22 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO fapp05.csoconline.com) (140.169.36.3) by mta3 with SMTP; 31 Jul 2001 15:13:21 -0000 Received: from csoc-mail-msfc.csoconline.com by fapp05.csoconline.com via smtpd (for mta1.onelist.com [208.48.218.7]) with SMTP; 31 Jul 2001 15:10:37 UT Received: by csoc-mail-msfc.csoconline.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) id <PP98MRNW>; Tue, 31 Jul 2001 10:12:33 -0500 Message-ID: <72222DC86846D411ABD300A0C9EB08A156FD12@csoc-mail-box.csoconline.com> To: "'iwar@yahoogroups.com'" <iwar@yahoogroups.com> X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) From: "Leo, Ross" <Ross.Leo@csoconline.com> Mailing-List: list iwar@yahoogroups.com; contact iwar-owner@yahoogroups.com Delivered-To: mailing list iwar@yahoogroups.com Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:iwar-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com> Date: Tue, 31 Jul 2001 10:12:32 -0500 Reply-To: iwar@yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [iwar] Chinese IW-one more thought Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I agree completely with your point. Their advantage is augmented, as you suggest, by several factors. One is the sheer numbers of potential I-warriors at their disposal. Second is their ability to put technology in each of these myriad I-warriors' hands to prosecute their plan of campaign. Third, and most important, is the active endorsement of their government in supporting this effort. Add to this the seeming infinite patience they can exercise as they proceed. This scenario compares favourably to the USA/NATO balance of airpower to that of the former USSR - we chose the technological route, whereas the Soviets went with numbers. Our planes may be able to knock out 6 of theirs, but that doesn't matter if they put up 7 or more to each one of ours. Ultimately they would still be flying and we would not. With the Chinese (and possibly others), this is definitely a numbers game. In this case, however, their numbers have the same technology we have. Ross A. Leo, CISSP, CBCP Director, IT Security Engineering "Cry havoc! And let slip the dogs of war." Wm. Shakespeare -----Original Message----- From: e.r. [mailto:fastflyer28@yahoo.com] Sent: Monday, July 30, 2001 22:13 To: iwar@yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [iwar] Chinese IW-one more thought yes, leo, but a powerfully focused and large computer network primarily out of bejing is what makes them a problem. Unlike western intelligence agencies who send one highly skilled operator out to do a job, the Chinese are very labor intensive and car no if 5 of 6 Iwarriors fail. If the 6th, al in seperate cells succeeds, then they have won the day. --- "Leo, Ross" <Ross.Leo@csoconline.com> wrote: > I must agree with Fred. A lack of substantial economic resources > simply > creates the "Mother of Invention" for these folks. With no large > state > subsidies, they must get creative in their approach, that's all. > State > endorsement is free (with the non-monetary reward of a "Get out of > Jail Fee" > card for example). Those who wage IWAR have the same advantages of > the > stereotypical terrorist - small size, wide dispersement, ability to > disappear into a crowd (or be invisible in the first place), and the > appearance of great mobility. Finding them, in any sense, is far > more > difficult than their hiding from us. They have a distinct advantage > over us > in this way, and the sad fact is we (the US) have provided them with > most of > the tools they are now using against us. > > Ross A. Leo > Ross A. Leo, CISSP, CBCP > Director, IT Security Engineering > > "Cry havoc! And let slip the dogs of war." Wm. Shakespeare > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Fred Cohen [ mailto:fc@all.net <mailto:fc@all.net> ] > Sent: Friday, July 27, 2001 07:59 > To: iwar@yahoogroups.com > Subject: Re: [iwar] Chinese IW-one more thought > > > Per the message sent by e.r.: > > ... > > Our country needs to learn that the short term notion of why using > the > > policy that "the enemy of my enemy is my friend" never lasts and > > eventually comes back in our face. While Russia is still a > problem, it > > economic fraility limits what they can do in a strategic sense in > the > > IWAR world. > > To the contrary - it is exactly why they will use the asymetric > advantage of the attacker today in the IWAR world. Lower cost and > risk > for higher potential gain - plus they have a lot of skill here. > > FC > -- > Fred Cohen at Sandia National Laboratories at tel:925-294-2087 > fax:925-294-1225 > Fred Cohen & Associates: http://all.net <http://all.net> - > fc@all.net - > tel/fax:925-454-0171 > Fred Cohen - Practitioner in Residence - The University of New > Haven > This communication is confidential to the parties it is intended > to > serve. > PGP keys: https://all.net/pgpkeys.html > <https://all.net/pgpkeys.html> - Have a great day!!! > > > ------------------ > http://all.net/ <http://all.net/> > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ ------------------ http://all.net/ Your use of Yahoo! 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This archive was generated by hypermail 2.1.2 : 2001-09-29 21:08:38 PDT